"TAP não sobrevive se se mantiver pública", garante Pinto Luz

[Opcard]

Um e CDU outro SPD , um fala para europeu ouvir outro para os alemães com saudades do marco .

O plano para não deixar cair os países em dificuldade ganhou forma após a crise , a Alemanha não pode ser acusada de não agarrar o euro

O problema é que há um grande desacordo com o que fazer após a ajuda , países com um problema conjuntural é fácil

Países com problemas estruturais como Portugal o seu deficite comercial passou de 0,4% em 1995 para 10,9% em 2008 , é necessário utilizar o “chicote “ como faz o FMI , mas a Europa não tem domador.

[atomez]

Atão em que ficamos?

O Económico diz, citando a Reuters:

Como a Europa vai salvar a Grécia e a Irlanda da falência

A zona euro já tem preparado um plano para evitar a bancarrota dos Estados-membros, sendo a Grécia e a Irlanda os principais candidatos a receber ajuda.

“Existe um plano [para evitar falências de países da zona euro]. Os ministros das Finanças acordaram em todos os procedimentos. O ponto principal é: ‘Nós não vamos deixar ninguém falir”, disse Otto Bernhardt, presidente do grupo de política financeira da CDU, o partido político da chanceler Ângela Merkel, citado pela “Reuters”.

Mas agora a Forbes, citando a mesma Reuters diz:

No euro zone bailout plan exists-euro zone leaders

BRUSSELS, March 20 (Reuters) - No plan has been agreed to bail out euro zone countries that are in trouble, the prime ministers of Italy, Ireland and Greece said on Friday, rejecting a German lawmaker's comments as incorrect and without basis.

German Finance Minister Peer Steinbrueck also said he could not confirm the veracity of remarks made by Otto Bernhardt, a member of Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats (CDU) who chairs the party's financial policy group in parliament.

Bernhardt told Reuters euro zone countries had agreed a rescue plan to prevent members of the currency bloc going bankrupt in the global economic downturn and would probably use it, with Ireland and Greece the top candidates for aid.

'There is a plan,' Bernhardt said. 'The finance ministers have agreed the procedures. The core point is: 'We won't let anyone go bust',' he told Reuters.

Greek Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis denied the existence of such a plan.

'There is no such prospect, nor a decision (on a rescue plan),' Karamanlis told reporters in Brussels.

Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen also dismissed the comments, telling reporters: 'The report is incorrect and has no basis.'

He welcomed a later clarification of the remarks by Bernhardt, who contacted Reuters to say that although politicians were obliged to formulate a broad plan of action he knew of no blueprint to address a country in trouble now.

Steinbrueck has acknowledged that Berlin stands ready to help weaker euro members but he again underlined on Friday that no euro zone country currently faced payment problems.

Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said that while there was no euro zone plan to rescue weaker members, any euro zone country in trouble would be shown solidarity by other members.

A spokesman for the European Central Bank, which according to Bernhardt was ready to take immediate action in case of a crisis with an unlimited amount of money available, said: 'The reported information is for the ECB untrue.'

Jean-Claude Juncker, the Chairman of euro zone finance ministers or the Eurogroup, said it would not be a good idea for the ECB to have any bailout fund.

'I do think we have to implement strictly the treaty and the treaty in article 103 is laying down the no bail rule and we have to have this in mind,' Juncker told a news briefing.

Isto é mesmo coisa de políticos!

Alinhavaram um plano para salvar a coisa, mas é para manter secreto e dizer ao povinho "não há plano porque não é preciso porque não há problema"

Um idiota qualquer descaiu-se em público e agora é preciso desmenti-lo...

Seja como for deve aplicar-se o Princípio Bíblico -- ao terceiro desmentido a coisa pode ser dada como certa

[Opcard]

Caro Branco

Sendo verdade que Milton Friedman afirmou que o Euro não passava da primeira crise , os lideres da França e Alemanha querem provar o contrario.

Numa primeira fase esta informação era de circulação restrita, quando um filho sabe que o pai assume as despesas o filho gasta .

Mas actual situação , penso não ser gaffe do ministro , é para dar confiança a quem compra
divida desses países e evitar o disparar dos spreads .

Quando afirmava que a Alemanha iria em socorro dos fracos era mais que uma convicção .
Cumprimentos
trial


http://economico.sapo.pt/noticias/como- ... _6276.html

Tens link para a fonte donde tiraste essa noticia?

Não que me duvide... gente doida é o que não tem faltado dos dois lados do atlântico. Continuo a achar que a Alemanha não tem capacidade de fazer o que quer sem sair incólume e talvez, quem sabe, arrastar o EUR para o fundo.

[salvadorveiga]

http://economico.sapo.pt/noticias/como- ... _6276.html

[Branc0]

Tens link para a fonte donde tiraste essa noticia?

Não que me duvide... gente doida é o que não tem faltado dos dois lados do atlântico. Continuo a achar que a Alemanha não tem capacidade de fazer o que quer sem sair incólume e talvez, quem sabe, arrastar o EUR para o fundo.

[Opcard]

Afinal ...... agora ja é publico
desde Janeiro que o assunto estava em cima da mesa
mas há contrapartidas.


Como a Europa vai salvar a Grécia e a Irlanda da falência

"A zona euro já tem preparado um plano para evitar a bancarrota dos Estados-membros, sendo a Grécia e a Irlanda os principais candidatos a receber ajuda.

“Existe um plano [para evitar falências de países da zona euro]. Os ministros das Finanças acordaram em todos os procedimentos. O ponto principal é: ‘Nós não vamos deixar ninguém falir”, disse Otto Bernhardt, presidente do grupo de política financeira da CDU, o partido político da chanceler Ângela Merkel, citado pela “Reuters”."

Discordo dessa visão da Alemanha, é um país que tem os seus próprios problemas para resolver como afirmou o Djovarius no tópico do EUR/USD.

Não se pode dar ao luxo de apagar os fogos alheios sob pena de não ter agua quando precisar.

[RiscoCalculado]

Eu não questiono que a Alemanha possa estar disposta a colaborar.
Estou mais ou menos de acordo com os motivos pelos quais o faria.

A ideia em si das Euro-bonds é que não me parece a mais acertada.
Sendo um dos problemas dos mercados financeiros a informação incompleta e a assimetria de informação, para quê uma medida que vai exactamente no sentido de agravar esse problema ?
Faria mais sentido a Alemanha garantir a divida dos restantes parceiros e assegurar que em caso de necessidade intervem para evitar o default de alguem que estar a misturar sob uma mesma denominação divida Alemã, Grega, Espanhola, Portuguesa ...

[trial]

A Alemanha tem os seus próprios problemas, tem razãoe e podem aumentar.

Mas posso escrever com absoluta certeza que a
Alemanha , desde que sejam respeitados duas ou três condições esta disposta a dar colaborar .

Mais neste momento está a ser analisada a melhor forma de o fazer .

Vamos ficar por aqui e dentro em breve veremos quem tem razão

[Branc0]

Discordo dessa visão da Alemanha, é um país que tem os seus próprios problemas para resolver como afirmou o Djovarius no tópico do EUR/USD.

Não se pode dar ao luxo de apagar os fogos alheios sob pena de não ter agua quando precisar.

[trial]

Caro Branco li o artigo .bem elaborado , o seu ponto de vista sobre a actual situação tem o mérito de sintetizar os nossos receios actuais

Vários países ,ou os seus políticos estão com grande receio de tumultos sócias a exemplo do que passa, nas Antilhas Francesas paralisação total e já lá vão 5 semanas.

62% dos franceses pensam que pode chegar a França e que as reivindicações são justa , o poder com medo ameaça ceder 200 euros de aumentos para todos o patronato diz que vai tudo a falência a extrema-esquerda vai engordando .

“Que raio ganha a Alemanha com isto quando já têm as melhores taxas de juro de toda a
Europa?”

Estas duas linhas acima são do seu artigo, discordo, ou melhor a Alemanha pode ter muito a perder .
Dizia-me um alemão :
-desta vez sem dispara um tiro vamos também ficar com grande parte dos mercados de leste que é o que conta nos nossos dias .

Quando se deu inicio do alargamento a leste só 3 países entrariam numa primeira fase Republica Checa , Hungria e Polónia ( eu estive por essa altura na Eslováquia, era o pior candidato tinha neocumunistas no poder, já tem o euro ) mas entrou tudo .

A Alemanha assim quis estava disposta a pagar a factura , tinha feitos contas e compensava , é exactamente o que se passa neste momento , Alemanha é o maior exportador do mundo, mas não pode perder os mercados a sua volta .

[Branc0]

Branco,
uma pergunta, poderá a banca vir a ter um sigma 10?

Acho que nesta altura ninguém pode ignorar esse risco e não sou só eu que o digo, até alguns "especialistas mainstream" são dessa opinião.

Sobre o tema até deixei este fim de semana um artigo no meu blog sobre a situação precária que vivemos deste lado do atlântico.

Os riscos vêm de muitos lados e o sistema bancário está muito interligado, uma falência num lado pode despoletar uma acção em cadeia inesperada como vimos brevemente no caso Lehman Brothers -> AIG.

[EuroVerde]

Branco,
uma pergunta, poderá a banca vir a ter um sigma 10?

[sargotrons]

Já agora deixo a fonte original desse desbocar, que esse "Mailonline" é mais WAGs e bolos... e já agora comem três vezes!

No more cream for fat cats, says the bank bailout boss Lord Myners


Lord Myners' office in the Treasury is directly above the Cabinet War Room — where Churchill directed his campaign against Hitler. “Sometimes I think I should be working from down there,” says the City Minister. For weeks, the man responsible for Britain's banks has been surviving on sandwiches, working over weekends and sometimes all night as he masterminds operations against a different kind of enemy — the credit crunch.

Since he joined the Government from the City in October, Lord Myners has helped to devise two bank rescue packages in the worst recession for 60 years. The former chairman of Marks & Spencer, banker for N. M. Rothschild and hedge fund manager admits that he has been “quite busy” but says: “It's not more stressful than the City. I am a technocrat. I work in detail and I have found the adjustment to government pretty easy.” The Prime Minister and the Chancellor “make the big decisions”, he says. His role is to identify the problems and say: “These are the solutions.”

This week the Government announced an insurance scheme to cover the banks' toxic assets, but it failed to calm the markets. Lord Myners admits that he does not know the scale of the bad debt or the cost to the taxpayer. “There are very, very substantial impaired assets in British banks. We would expect requests to insure significant pools of assets... We are trying to achieve closure; we are trying to say there is a basis on which banks can say it will get no worse than this.”

It will, he says, take four to six weeks to work out the details. “If we get it wrong and we charge too much, the banks will say they are not interested and continue to carry the risk and continue to be in the mire of past errors. If we don't charge enough, they will flood us with assets and we will end up putting public funds at risk to a greater extent than professional analysis would justify.”
There could, the minister admits, be more bailouts to come. “There may well be. Who knows? It depends how we negotiate these things.”

Nationalisation is not the solution, he says. “I always say you can never rule anything out, but I believe that strong independent commercial banks are the best way to manage the division of credit in our economy.”

However, he insists that the Government will do “whatever is necessary” to shore up the banks. “Doing too much is less risky than doing too little.”

Lord Myners tells us that within days of his appointment he looked into the abyss. “How close were we to a systemic collapse of the banking system? We were very close on Friday, October 10. There were two or three hours when things felt very bad, nervous and fragile. Major depositors were trying to withdraw — and willing to pay penalties for early withdrawal — from a number of large banks. The steadying influence of what we did should not be underestimated.” The whole system, he says, is like a house of cards. “It would have been Bank A today, Bank B tomorrow, Bank C the next, all the way down.”

The Government, he says, has a duty to intervene. “This is an industry which is underwritten by society. The question is how does society get an appropriate premium for its risk?”

The bankers must, he warns, learn from their past mistakes. “Banking should be a simple industry: if you have surplus money, you can place it with safety; and if you want to borrow money you should be able to borrow it on sensible terms. But banks developed sophisticated risk management instruments... and that began to develop a life of its own. We will see a reversion back to simpler banking forms. The older, basic banking business my mother would have understood will be seen as sound.” His main worry now is that banks have gone from a period of “excessive exuberance” to one of “reckless caution”. They are “are at the shallow end of the pool, clinging on to the rail. We want to get them out into the deeper water. If they don't go there, the fear they have is crystallised by their own actions. Failing to support British business and householders is going to create a downward spiral.”

With repossessions and unemployment rising, there is a growing sense that the Government is no longer the master of events. “The Government is very much in control,” the minister insists.

“We have acknowledged that it is going to be a difficult year. This is a global phenomenon.” But as sterling falls, Britain is starting to look worse-placed than other countries. “I wouldn't speculate on why the currency is doing what it is,” he says. “Economies turn. On a particularly dark and cold night the sun does come up the next day. We have had recessions before — I am old enough to remember several of them. This is a particularly unusual one, so it makes it challenging.”

When we ask whether there are any signs of recovery yet, his press officer shouts: “They are talking about green shoots,” and the minister says: “I won't make any predictions.” Speculation that Britain, like Iceland. could have to declare itself bankrupt is ridiculous, in his view. “The banks were on some thinnish ice but that's not the same as economic bankruptcy.”

The Government still has the option of quantitative easing — printing money in layman's terms — if the situation does not improve. “That's an issue primarily for the Monetary Policy Committee. We've created in the new £50billion fund the architecture which could be used.”

With bank shares going through the floor, surely the Financial Services Authority's decision to lift the ban on short-selling was misguided? “I don't think there is a lot of shorting out there,” says the former hedge fund manager.

Lord Myners is now surrounded by bankers with teams from Deutsche Bank and Credit Suisse working alongside Treasury officials on the rescue packages. Isn't it wrong that the people who got the country into this mess are being paid to sort it out? “A lot of people are offering us free advice and, where we have negotiated fees, we have driven a pretty hard bargain.”

The Government, he says, is not just pouring out more cream for the fat cats.

“We are not bailing out the bankers. What we have done is to ensure the banks are there to support the economy. There are going to have to be some fundamental changes in the way the banks operate ... the golden days of huge bonuses in the investment banking arms are gone.”

Although he does not want to “demonise” the bankers, he does believe that those at the top were earning too much. “There is a need to look at the whole approach to compensation. To me it seems hugely challengeable that those at the top of our corporations — not just our banks — have seen their remuneration grow exponentially over the past 20 years. Perceived fairness is very important.”

Bank boards must, in his view, be much tougher on senior executives.

“I've met more masters of the Universe than I would like to, people who were grossly over-rewarded and didn't recognise that. Some of that is pretty unpalatable. They are people who have no sense of the broader society around them . . . I think there is quite a lot of annoyance and much of that is justified. Let us be quite clear: there has been mismanagement of our banks.”

Should anyone be prosecuted? “If they have committed criminal offences yes, but I don't think you can say I so abhor what you've done that I'm to prosecute you.”

Should any of the fat cats pay back their bonuses or lose knighthoods? “That's a decision for individuals.”

In the City, Lord Myners says that he practised what he now preaches. “I have always been focused on value for money,” he says. “I get my suits from Marks & Spencer. We always take a quiet holiday in Cornwall in the summer. I grew up there, it's my home.”

As a child, he was adopted from an orphanage in Bath by a Cornish couple. “My father was a fisherman and a small shopkeeper. I was fortunate that I had a good education.”

His character was, he believes, formed by his background. “People have said I've got a bad temper, which I don't think is true, but I'm a very driven person. I have had the great good fortune in life to do many things and now I'm doing this.”

Life and times

Born April 1, 1948

Education Truro School; Institute of Education, University of London Current job Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury

Career His first job was as a teacher in London, then, in 1972, he joined The Daily Telegraph as a financial journalist. He went to work for NM Rothschild & Sons merchant bank and, in 1985, he moved to Gartmore, a pension fund manager, becoming chairman in 1987. From 2002 to 2006 he was chairman of Marks & Spencer. He was also chairman of Guardian Media Group and Land Securities. He joined the Government in October. He has held directorships with Bank of New York, Imro, Bridgepoint, Coutts, Lloyd’s Market Board, NatWest, O2 and Orange, and chaired the Tate and the Low Pay Commission

Family He is married to Alison, who is chairwoman of the Contemporary Art Society. He has four daughters and a son

[Serrano]

Espantoso!
Será que fica por aqui?

[Branc0]

Não sei se já tinha sido colocado aqui ou não, se for paciência, comem duas vezes

O dia em que a banca inglesa esteve a 3 horas do colapso:

Britain was just three hours away from going bust last year after a secret run on the banks, one of Gordon Brown's Ministers has revealed.

City Minister Paul Myners disclosed that on Friday, October 10, the country was 'very close' to a complete banking collapse after 'major depositors' attempted to withdraw their money en masse.

The Mail on Sunday has been told that the Treasury was preparing for the banks to shut their doors to all customers, terminate electronic transfers and even block hole-in-the-wall cash withdrawals.

Only frantic behind-the-scenes efforts averted financial meltdown.

If the moves had failed, Mr Brown would have been forced to announce that the Government was nationalising the entire financial system and guaranteeing all deposits.

But 60-year-old Lord Myners was accused last night of being 'completely irresponsible' for admitting the scale of the crisis while the recession was still deepening and major institutions such as Barclays remain under intense pressure.

The build-up to 'Black Friday' started on Monday, October 6, when the FTSE 100 dropped by nearly eight per cent as bad news on the economy started to multiply.

The following day, Chancellor Alistair Darling began all-night talks ahead of an announcement on the Wednesday that billions of pounds of taxpayers' money would be used to pour liquidity into the system.

But shares continued to plummet, turning into a rout on the Friday when the FTSE crashed by ten per cent within minutes of opening.

Both Royal Bank of Scotland and HBOS were nearing complete collapse - but Lord Myners, who built up his fortune during a long career in the City, said the problems ran far wider.

'There were two or three hours when things felt very bad, nervous and fragile,' he said. 'Major depositors were trying to withdraw - and willing to pay penalties for early withdrawal - from a number of large banks.'
Lord Myners

Lord Myners: 'There were two or three hours when things felt very bad, nervous and fragile'

The threat to the system was so severe that the Bank of England was forced to contact RBS's creditors in New York and Tokyo to persuade them not to withdraw their funds, but it is not known which other banks faced a run on their reserves.

'We faced the very real problem of how banks could stop depositors from withdrawing their money,' a Treasury source said yesterday.

'The banks themselves were selling their shareholdings, accelerating the stock-market falls, and preparing to shut up shop. Mortgages would have been sold on and savers would have been spooked, to put it mildly. It would have been chaos.'

After a weekend of crisis talks, which concluded at dawn on the Monday, it was announced that Lloyds TSB was taking over HBOS, supported by £17billion of taxpayers' money, and RBS would receive an injection of £20billion - prompting the resignation of RBS's infamous chief executive, Sir Fred 'the shred' Goodwin. Share prices at last started a small rally.

Ruth Lea, economic adviser to the Arbuthnot Banking Group, said last night that it was 'highly irresponsible' for Lord Myners to reveal the scale of the problems because it could serve to further wreck already fragile levels of confidence.

'We are not out of the woods yet,' she said. 'I fear for Barclays, after the fall in its share price, and Lloyds has been damaged by the HBOS takeover.'

She added: 'If it was panning out in that way, then the Government would have had no choice but to step in and nationalise the entire financial system.'

Angela Knight, chief executive of the British Bankers Association, said: 'The issues related only to HBOS and RBS. To imply that all the banks would have gone under is wrong. It is complicated.'

Lord Myners also said that bank executives had been 'grossly over-rewarded' during the 'golden days' of big bonuses. 'They are people who have no sense of the broader society around them,' he said. 'There is quite a lot of annoyance and much of that is justified.'

Acho que alguém devia ter ficado de bico calado...